and that's in large part because ron desantis, who was initially

hyped up as the candidate has seen his poll numbers tank. just look at the polling averages since the start of this calendar year. desantis should come with its own slide whistle. he's almost 30 points behind trump and the average of the national poll. even a top official at a pro-desantis superpact recently conceded his campaign has been a bust so far. >> right now in national polling we are way behind. to be blunt and honest, it's an uphill battle. i don't think it's a winnable battle but clearly donald trump is the runaway front-runner in the first four states which matter tremendously. polls are tighter. we're clearly still down. we have work to do and wood to chop. >> it does seem like a bad sign when one of your top surrogates has to admit that but it's true at least and a lot of reasons the desantis campaign is doing

so poorly. one reason is what some are calling a lack of charisma which seems to be alienating voters on the campaign trail especially in the early states where you do retail politicking. here he is in action during a campaign stop at the southern border. >> there were people from tajikistan coming to the southern border. i remember seeing libya. they have identified 10,000 chinese nationals coming across the southern border. >> i don't know. i mean there's no accounting for taste but does that do that for you? i don't know. the candidate quality issues are only partially to blame, however. a big part of the reason i would submit that he's failed to gain any traction is he has chosen whether he realizes or not to run this weird alienating hard right campaign, like a ron desantis doesn't care who he offends kind of thing and i understand the logic because it is the case there is an appetite

for that kind of thing in the republican base and he thinks, i think, if i can game it out, he can gain traction in the darkest, most anti-social corners of the internet where cruelty is a virtue but i think even those folks and the people he's trying to appeal to will find his campaign's latest video to be as desperate and thirsty as the rest of us do. >> i will do everything in my power to protect our lgbt citizens. >> >> caitlyn jenner would want to use the bathroom, you would be fine with her using any bathroom she choose jz. >> correct. >> can transgender women compete in miss universe? >> yes. make america great again. ♪♪

>> i >> i cannot think of anything more horrifying. >> it literally has shut down drag. >> just produced >> just produced some of the harshest most draconian laws that threaten transexistence. >> mission accomplished. you win. ♪♪ >> okay, there's a lot here. first let me just say i understand i am probably you are not the target audience for that video, fine but everything is just so strange and so entirely alienating. yes, it's bait. oh, the liberals including me in

that video, they don't like ron desantis, therefore you should like him but, again, that's lost underneath the in fact, i would go so far as to say most are not even the target audience. even most are not. when you're trying to compare yourself yourself favorably to the serial killer from american psycho, you may have lost the thread of it. when you hired campaign staffers, one of whom tweeted the video who have lauded trades on nick fuentes who like to hang out in parts of the internet where people impress each other and how they're never going to get married or have any kind of romantic relationship, maybe this is the kind of campaign you end up running.

>> discussing, whatever, homophobic, offensive video on the last day of pride month because this is all overly determine they're trying they're trying to incite a and i and i get that this video exists, again, for that purpose. we all see what you're doing. there's nothing subtle but even on its own terms, i think you miss the mark. my strong instinct even to the base, this comes across like jeb's infamous please clap look how edgy we are. look how edgy we are. on that on that show where steve cortez admits desantis is behind by a mile the host in an informal scientific survey which had trump trouncing desantis by 60 points, so he's not even winning over the kind of like hyper engaged twitter people he's targeting and then, of course, there are costs to this kind of thing, politics is addition, not subtraction, a cliche but not many many prominent lgbtq republicans

are now turning their backs on desantis. you you can't out conservative trump trump. there is no opening to run to his right on the culture war stuff. desantis was seen as the alternative by those who didn't like trump. it seems apparent he is the alternative to trump by those who do like trump. as long as trump is in the race and centers on his world view desantis won't be able to pass him. again, again, i'm an outsider looking in here and i will be the first to admit it and admit that you don't go to chris hayes for the most obvious insight into the thinking of the median republican primary voter, stipulated but, again, my two cents, if you want to beat trump in the republican primary, you need to kind of comfort his voters and keep them in your fold. you have to convince them you're a better and more electable alternative and add them to the people not that interested in

voting for trump in the primary. you are not going to get there by trying to convince the biggest dorks on the internet that you are even more of a callous psychopath than he is. tim miller is the former communications director for please clap jeb bush 2016 campaign and he wrote about the desantis video. meredith mcgraw is a national political correspondent where she wrote about the lagging desantis campaign and both join me now. tim, i feel like you'll have something to say about this. i know partly what you have to say but your read on not just the video which, whatever, it's one of those artifacts but the strategy behind it and what it shows about how they're approaching this and maybe why it's not working. >> yeah, but i think we could leave jeb out, okay, chris. it's been a tough few years for but i but i appreciate it. yeah, the strategy here, i discuss at length that so stipulating that, the strategy

here is the problem and you hit it in part two, right, desantis' elevator pitch here to the republican primary voters was, i'm a winner, trump is actually a loser. i can give you all the maga stuff you want to win elections and so electability is a core part and the koch brothers supported that. trump can't win. desantis can win so an ad like this runs just directly and counter to that and it seems to me as if the desantis team does not understand that their general election, you know, argument is directly tied to their primary argument so, yeah, they can get to the right of trump on certain thing, thicks that are popular with general electorates or the primary electorate but if they try to get to right of trump on these weird extreme things, even if the polls have gone in a direct i don't like on trans rights,

it's extremely unpopular. opposing pride month extremely unpopular so if unpopular so if you're the electability candidate and i can go in phoenix and atlanta win where trump lost and you're running ads like this, it's a loser and the republican primary voters, a few of them, the college educated ones, the one i talked to an attorney who said they're desperate, the noncollege, you know, trump voters can smell it. he doesn't seem like a winner. he doesn't seem like an alpha. even if they don't believe the polls he's coming off wrong. i think they're drawing on both the electoral side of this as well as the moral ethical side. >> yeah, i want to follow up on the substance and read from what you said in the bulwark. are the voters who abandoned the droves excited to come back to someone running on anti-trump

bigotry or those who rejected blake masters will support someone who compares himself to patrick bateman. i promise you the answer is, no. meredith, as someone who's been watching this and writing about it as well, what do you think about the sort of their understanding of what they're trying to do and whether that's >> well >> well, on sunday night steve cortez, who worked for trump in 2016 and 2020 and then came over to support desantis and work on his pac had a pretty blunt admission and sort of where they're at in the race and also what they need to do moving forward, he said that trump is the front-runner, he's obvious about where they're at in the polls when it comes to, you know, desantis being double digits behind donald trump, and he said that he hoped that they could perhaps turn things around if they got desantis' story out

there more, his political story, his personal story and while he is out there stumping in places like new hampshire where he was at the independence day parade there, he had gone to iowa where he has, you know, millions of dollars worth of door knockers working on his behalf, it just doesn't seem like that message is coming clear and, you know, as you mentioned and as tim was talking about, he's in this tricky spot when it comes to donald trump where polling, republicans don't want to hear republicans bashing trump and going after him, so he can't do that. he doesn't want to alienate that base of core trump supporters and keeps going to the right of trump on issues like abortion, like gay rights and trans rights and even had the log cabin republicans come out and rebuke the homophobic video that he

released, so he's boxed himself in this weird corner. >> yes, your point and also what's weird about it, i'm giving free advice, it's worth what i'm charging you for it but, like, to your point, meredith, the polling says don't bash trump which is true. don't go after trump so why are you going after him in this way, like, it's like of all the ways to go after him, you're doing it. you're you're alienating people because you're attacking him and making him seem more moderate and electable. there's a there's a feeling that you could cordon off the anti-trans stuff and cordon off the anti-drag and anti-groomer callumny that was being spewed by the good conservative gays and gays against groomers, right, that was supposed to kind of thread

this needle, which, of course, is falling apart now as people understand that, oh, no, they just don't like gay people. it's always been the point. this is someone resigning from gays against groomers, that's g.a.g., which is because of desantis support by the leader of the group by departure from g.a.g. is directly related to the founder's outspoken support for desantis in light of his recent ad that is extremely anti why why respect everyone's right to their own opinion. while i respect everyone's right to their own opinion the homophobia coming from the desantis campaign is not something i want to be affiliated with in any way. even by proxy through g.a.g. the most intentionally abdur rat of folks, this is what this was about all the time. >> hard to know how to spoof that.

i met so i met some last week and i asked this question, weren't you worried this is going to blow back on you, you know, aren't you worried your rights will be threatened and a lot said no. here we are, that gentleman that posted, even rick grinell tweeted it was homophobic. that's a bad sign. trump's national security adviser who has gone far over the line on issues related to lgbt despite the fact that he's openly gay so i think this is, you know, a real threat to him, you know, that he thinks that these attacks will work and they're not and i think hopefully it's a wake-up call to people it's not just going after trans people, not that it would be okay but this will continue to blow back and desantis has been unapologetic about that. >> tim miller and meredith mcgraw, thank you both. appreciate it. coming up, orwellian

ministry of truth. how a federal judge channeled it in a ruling against the biden white house. it's a wild story and it's next, stick around. gives our strongest hold and 5x food seal. if your mouth could talk, it would ask for... poligrip.

we moved out of the city so our little sophie and 5x food seal. could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch.

yesterday on the fourth of july we good a very weird and seemingly sudden ruling from a judge, federal judge in the western district of louisiana with some broad first amendment implications. >> a >> a federal judge barred parts of the administration from contacting social media platforms about online content.

now, the ruling came in response to a lawsuit brought by republican-led states alleging that the white house went too far in its efforts to curb content that challenged vaccines or threatened elections. >> this federal injunction handed down by this judge as of, you know, yesterday bars key agencies including the cdc, department of justice and department of state from even contacting social media platforms like twitter, facebook and instagram over concerns like misinformation on covid-19. in the ruling the judge accuses the federal government of pretty heady stuff saying they were running an orwellian ministry of truth, suppression of opposition and dissent. when you do a little googling you discover the plaintiffs republicans attorneys general filed this case in this small district in louisiana because they knew there was a good chance they would get this guy on your screen, judge terry dodi who blocks the vaccine mandate

for health care workers in the middle of a once in a century joyce vance is joyce vance is a former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and now professor at the alabama university of law and joins me now. i i have read most of this opinion and real head scratcher. what is the judge ordering here? >> so, the judge in essence is shutting down communication between broad parts of the federal government and the social media platforms and, chris, this is a two-way exchange where the government shares information with the private sector about threats and risks and the private sector shares its own information with the government, none of us are safer with this sort of exchange shut down. >> yeah, and i can understand and be sympathetic to in the abstract concerns about government coercion vis-a-vis

speech platforms. doesn't strike me as crazy but this this case it's focused on covid-19 a lot and it was interesting, here's fauci on msnbc talking about hydrox hydroxyc hydroxychloroquine. hydroxychloroquine. >> >> they show it is not effective in the treatment of correspondents' disease. >> that's true and has been true and is actually importantly true because lots of people were trying it and it wasn't working. it's important you know it's not effective and the ruling by this judge says dr. fauci made statements on "good morning america" and on "andrea mitchell reports" that hydroxychloroquine was not effective and cesured it on the benefits. there's no coercion alleged. he just seems to be implying it

in a federal judicial order. >> you know, i sense your frustration, chris, and i want to echo it here because the allegation is a first amendment violation by the government that the government is compelling or restraining speech and there's none of that. none of that established in this complaint. this is this is a preliminary injunction, the plaintiff, the attorneys general and other parties have to show a substantial likelihood of success on the merit but can't show the government was telling people they had to remove speech from their platforms because dr. fauci was on television speaking the truth. >> there's also this question that kind of haunts this case when i saw the ruling which is this sort of forum shopping problem. it's been it's been a problem with judge kacsmaryk in amarillo, texas, where the plaintiffs wanted to get mifepristone sustain off the shelves went and not only sued

but tried to get a nationwide injunction and succeeded. it was later stayed by a circuit court that would, you know, cut access off for people across the it just it just seems like a playbook move to file this suit in part of louisiana knowing you're getting the guy. i wonder what you think of it as this sort of loophole jurisdiction hacking that we're seeing increasingly. >> yeah, i so i think this situation is a little different. i think you're absolutely correct to point out that they sought this particular judge out because they were aware that he had granted a series of injunctions in covid vaccine cases and seemed to have animosity toward the government's approach to covid in general. but this is a judge who was confirmed 98-0 in the senate. he's someone who was well the the aba rated him that way. he's been both a prosecutor and state court judge. he seems to have an issue in

this one area and what you would expect to happen is that the fifth circuit would reverse him very quickly, but the fifth circuit, of course, has become an uber conservative circuit and whether or not they will do that remains to be seen. there are a lot of problems with this order, not the least of which is that the plaintiffs don't seem to have standing, that basic final hurdle parties have to pass to be in court. there are so many flaws in this case, whether the fifth circuit takes it on remains to be seen. >> we should note the fifth circuit is the appellate court for judge kacsmaryk and they believe the inability to rein in, you know, sort of avant-garde district judges and their orders has been part of what has essentially allowed for these kind of nationwide injunctions to happen. >> it has definitely contributed to that mood. nationwide injunctions, you know, has been a thing on both

sides of the political aisle. but the way that they're being used here in connection with judge shopping is particularly pernicious. >> y >> yeah, i'm going to be curious to see what the fifth circuit does with this and i think it's headed right for the supreme court actually. we'll see what they make of it. joyce, thank you very much. >> thank you. still ahead we've all seen the pictures of the classified documents stacked around donald trump's toilet. but a new ruling tonight could shed even more light on the case against trump. that's next.

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>> it has been over three weeks since donald trump appeared in federal court in miami and pled not guilty to 37 felony counts over his handling of classified those co those counts include among others violations of the espionage act, willful retention of national defense information and notably conspiracy to obstruct justice. in the detailed indictment jack smith and his team charged trump's personal valet walt nauta as his co-conspirator. he's been unable to obtain local counsel to represent him in florida but due in court tomorrow and while we wait on that, federal imagine state judge in florida released never before seen parts of the august 2022 search warrant that led to mar-a-lago being searched. that led to the fbi also finding the trove of classified documents, over 100 in fact at his beach club. we learned in the newly unsealed

portions of the search warrant in addition to the approximately 85 to 95 boxes located in the storage room, there were also other boxes in the storage room with merchandise such as challenge coins, garment bags and memorabilia from mar-a-lago and photograph frames and other decor items. kristy greenberg serves as the deputy chief of the criminal division and joins me now. the sort of most incriminating stuff, i think, in terms of the case against trump appears in the indictment although there may be more incriminating stuff we'll learn at trial so the application of the search warrant comes early in the time line when they knew less, nevertheless, it is yet another data point of, a, how recklessly this was stored and how it's all mixed in as his own stuff which is what he keeps saying, my papers, my papers, my papers. >> right, so this search warrant affidavit, what's been unredacted shows how detailed

this was and there was ample probable cause to search mar-a-lago and specific locations at mar-a-lago. you've got evan corcoran's statements he served only the storage room because he was told nothing -- there were no other location that is had the classified information. you also had other boxes that were moved from the storage room and how is that laid out in the in the in the affidavit? well, they sh well, they show you the photographs. we've seen we've seen those in the unredacted version for the first time. the the surveillance footage is explained in detail. what is still redacted i suspect is the confidential source information that is likely here, i would say, based on the indictment trump employee two who has text messages about moving the boxes to and from that storage room so when you want to get a search warrant you not only want confidential source information if you can get it but want that corroborated and i suspect you have that here. you have the confidential

source, you have as we can see from what's unredacted all of this corroborating evidence in terms of photographs and surveillance footage. so when trump's lawyers and nauta's lawyers try to move to suppress the evidence that was obtained from this search warrant, they're going to fail. this is just incredibly detailed. remember remember that a.g. garland approved this. you don't get this for a former president's location approved without the case being incredibly strong. >> then you've got -- right, you've also got all the ducks in a row and all this evidence amassed and then if you go and don't find anything it looks bad. but when you get 100 documents, you know, those things together make it all look pretty aboveboard. >> >> right, and, again, i'm suspecting it's redacted but based on what they learned from a confidential source they knew the classified information was going to be here. they say that in the pc section,

the probable cause section of the indictment, we are -- our investigation has established there is classified information in other locations outside of that storage room. we don't we don't know because of the redactions but i suspect it's the confidential source. >> there's also been some other activity in the other special counsel investigation. we get, you know, day by day we sort of get more little glimpses of it, little things that peek above the surface of the water. in this case it's the arizona republic and one of those states we know from rusty bowers and others, doug ducey saying trump pressured him to overturn the election. jack smith subpoenaed the secretary of state in may and related to two lawsuits one from trump's campaign and from chairwoman kelly ward that alleged errors and fraud in the presidential results. we don't really know necessarily what that means, but how do you see this fitting into what we can glean from what we do know

publicly about what they're looking at? >> well, it said in that article they were looking at documents, in particular showing in connection with those lawsuits communications with the attorneys, with trump's counsel and that's consistent with other public reporting that really trump's lawyer's have been the focus of that january 6th we know we know from public reporting that john eastman's cell phone has been seized pursuant to a search warrant, the same with jeffrey clark, former doj official, again, you need probable cause to get search warrants for individual devices and particular lawyers, so, you know, it seems as though the lawyers are really a focus here. >> yeah, and, of course, lawyers being a focus is a through line and evan corcoran who clearly was a key part of building the case particularly for obstruction in the indictment against donald trump. you said this, and, again, all of us are essentially flying blind. we don't know but can just glean

together from the clues, prediction, look for charges in special counsel jack smith's january 6th probe against trump and his former lawyers this what sort what sort of moved you to make that prediction. >> well, there's been public reporting that prosecutors are nearing charging decisions but you have seen a steady stream of witnesses before the federal grand jury in recent weeks and there was also reporting that the special counsel's office was pressing attorneys not to have delays. they needed to get into the grand jury before the end of june, you know, why is that the case? presumably they have a presumably they have a timetable here and i'm here and i'm guessing at least part of that timetable is informed by what fanly willis is doing in georgia. she said her timetable is end of july, early to mid-august, so i think you can also look at the fact that they've amassed evidence from really donald trump's inner circle. we know that his campaign officials, michael roman apparently is cooperating, he

was the direct of election day state state officials in all the battleground states, you've got potentially mark meadows, white house counsel, mike pence, you know, if you have his inner circle, you're really, i think, at that point nearing the end of the investigation. >> all right, kristy greenberg, as always, a pleasure. thank you very much. still to come, three years after america was swept up in a summer of protests following the police murder of george floyd, how has the country changed. wesley lowery jeans me on his new book ahead. good thing the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. just tag us in. ouaaaahhhh! [bell dings] for a great low rate, go with the general.

31 million americans are sweating it out with heat alerts impacting the south and west. authorities say a 57-year-old woman died during an eight-mile hike in the grand canyon with it topping 100 degree. phoenix and phoenix expected to top triple digits today. the extreme temperatures fueling fast-moving flames in washington state. with fears that risk of wildfire may increase during july 4th >> as it >> as it turned out yesterday, july 4th ended up being the world's hottest day on record. say it again, the hottest day ever recorded since we began keeping track. as environmental activists put it no human has seen it hotter. the best estimate is that it was the hottest day since sometime

in the last interglacial period 125,000 years ago right about the time other scientists think humans etched the first symbol on to bone and started wearing shells as decorations and broke the period record on july 3rd, the day before. for more than four decades we've been taking this global temperature, an average from all sorts of data points around the world and think of it as a thermometer for the planet telling us we are spiking a serious fever and started to breach the threshold surpassing the target for global warming set by experts and policy makers decades ago. you may have heard this number to be a warning, 1.5 degrees celsius above what's called preindustrial levels, that is before we started burning fossil fuels and pushing tons of carbon into the atmosphere. the thing about that number, it doesn't sound like much. it's about 2.7 degrees fahrenheit which is closer to

understanding what it really means but if you think about it again like a thermometer, it's like going from a normal 98.6 degree body temperature to spiking a 101.3 degree fever. 101.3 degrees, you're pretty sick, like you're definitely feeling it. you're not going to die but if you spike a couple more degrees, you're going to probably end up in the hospital. and that metaphor is almost literal because the human body really struggles in high heat particularly when combined with a recent he a recent heat wave in texas resulted in hundreds of hospitalizations, at least 13 deaths, 11 coming in just one two others two others died while hiking in big bend national park in west texas. as temperatures co as temperatures continue to rise experts are acknowledging that we are more likely than not to exceed that 1.5-degree target. in fact it's all about assured at this point. the only way to make sure we don't end up producing a global

hospitalization or civilizational heat death is to continue to rapidly expand investments in and deployment of carbon-free energy and then we got to start figuring out how to take carbon out of the atmosphere at scale. but even if we do that, it's going to get hot and hotter. we are now finding out what it is like to live with a level of heat unlike anything humans have experienced for thousands of years. and spoiler and spoiler alert, it's not great. i got a new credit card, and i'm even finding ways to save. finally getting smart about money feels really good. see all you can do with the free experian app. download it now.

say his name. >> streaming across the brooklyn bridge thousands walked to honor george floyd. parents and their children following floyd's brother marking another peaceful protest as many demand change. >> my brother's gone, but the floyd name still lives on. >> three years ago this month we were in the middle of an intense summer protest following the police murder of george floyd in minneapolis caught on a cell phone camera. it was a movement like we haven't seen in half a century. americans took the streets by the tens of thousands all across the country in cities big and small during the first year of the global pandemic to march in solidarity for racial justice. now, three years later it's worth stepping back to survey what changed after the months of protest and what has not? that question, at least the framing about how backlash works

makes a part of the new book by wesley lowery titled "american whitelash: a changing nation and the cost of progress." he reported from ferguson, missouri, during the protest that following the police killing of michael brown covering it with his colleagues at "the washington post" and even arrested documenting the encounter on his phone. in 2016 he won the pulitzer prize for his fatal force project at the post which established a database of police shootings nationwide. his book, "american whitelash," is out now and glad to have him. wesley, congrats on the book. i want to start with this framing of progress backlash as a kind of familiar and cyclical two-step in the story of american racial progress and particularly reconstruction and the redemption, civil rights movement, backlash to that, barack obama being elected president and what came after that and how you sort of think about those cycles as a framing

device for the book. >> of course, thanks for having me, chris. you know, i really started thinking about this and this was after talking to some historians about a tug-of-war, right? i think sometimes we try to divide history into clean sections and they never really what what happens is always influenced on what happens the day the section began and instead i tried to think about it as a push and pull, that we have a nation that's founded on a racialized caste system we write into our laws the creation of race and know it's it's not it's not biological. it's a it's a social construct. it's not actually real but decide to make it something that our society is structured around in terms of who has what rights, who has what claims to freedom. what that does is necessitates in the pursuit of multiracial democracy and equal society, it necessitates people to fight on behalf of multiculturalism in a multiracial democracy so they pull in that direction, the

people who benefited from the initial system for those who enjoyed the status quo as is or at least believe they were the winners of that, they tug back and so we see this back and forth across our history where in moments it aer poohs and the fact there have been real steps towards a multiracial democracy, what we see are forces in favor of a more white supremacist structure, that pullback. >> and the subject of your book is the most extreme versions of that and extends through a period of time in the wake of barack obama being elected. some of the incidents you talk about in the book, for instance, the killing of heather heyer. some are less well known. it's the most violent examples of this kind of backlash which individuals commit horrifying and heinous acts of brutality to

tug that progress back. >> of course, you know, i think there's been a great body of work and body of literature in recent years looking at the ways in which systemically and structurally there is a negative response, a backlash, a whitelash to systemic progress, right? we talk a lot about voting rights and about mass incarceration and school segregation and i would never suggest we talk less about those things, right, but i also think it's important for us to think about that these are not all academic concepts, not all concepts for this debate theoretically do we do an affirmative action policy and if we get rid of it, is it a failing but in moments following progress we see people who commit acts of violence in the name of retaining and restoring white supremacy and real people lose their lives in the meantime and i think we have to focus on that and talk about that, not at the expense of the other stuff.

in carol angerson's "white rage," everyone can read. beyond that when we have conversations about the public square, about what should we do as members of media institutions, what should we do with politicians who would appeal to this white racial anxiety? we have to understand what the stakes are, and the stakes are that real people might lose their lives in the midst of this. this is an academic, not theoretical, there are real issues at play here and real people have been victims of this era. >> yeah, and there's always this question, i think, in some case, in the case of, you know, charlottesville, that was just so clearly like part of an organized movement, a group of, you know, racists and fascist sympathizers who congregated for this purpose and this woman was murdered there and others feel more for lack of a better word one-off, the shooting, the mass shooting and murder at the temple you chronicle in the

book, how do you think about this line between, like, a lone wolf or a disturbed individual or individual act of violence and the ideological movement they're pursuing? >> of course, well, when we look at these incidents that we think of as lone wolf attacks or incidents where white supremacists act out and do so without the formal affiliation of any group we have to understand the ideology, the way that these white supremacist groups have operated and have now operated for decades. there was a time when it was much more bureaucratic and they could file, organizations could file civil lawsuits and bankrupt them so the white supremacist, they write this in their literature and shift into a leaderless resistance similar to conversations we see on the left elsewhere, this they shift into what they call a leaderless resistance. it's frankly similar to conversations that we see on the left elsewhere. this idea you're trying to prosthetize to the masses so any individual can see it and act

out. in these cases we see they don't need the instruction of a group. all they need is the political rhetoric to spike their interest send them on some google searches and real people lose their lives. >> thank you very much. >> thanks for having me. >> that is all in on this wednesday night. and remember you can get all the best video from the show and much much more by following us on the big new social media site that launched threads. we're as@allinwith chris. we're threading stuff apparently. out front starts right now. >> i promise as soon as i'm offset i'll become the next follower to the chris hayes show. thank you, chris. one more for you. and thank you at home for joining us this hour. alex has the night off, and what a night it is. for the past two hours we have been speed-reading t